I found an example:

"And so by reason of the smallest part or class, and of the knowledge which resides in this presiding and ruling part of itself, the whole state, being thus constituted according to nature, will be wise; and this, which has the only knowledge worthy to be called wisdom, has been ordained by nature to be of all classes the least. www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato/plato-politeia-2.asp?pg=60" target="_blank">https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato/plato-politeia-2.asp?pg=60

My retranslation by putting in the word 'aligned':
"And so by reason of the smallest part or class, and of the knowledge which resides in this presiding and ruling part of itself, the whole state, being thus constituted ALIGNED to nature, will be wise; and this, which has the only knowledge worthy to be called wisdom, has been ordained by nature to be of all classes the least."

The English word 'according' is loose. English speakers use this to refer to works, writers. Like the Gospel according to Mark.

But here is not the context meaning that the parts of the state are made to align with the prescriptions of nature? "Align" means "orientation" which is a different connotation than "according". "According" does not have the same meaning as orientation. Here in that quote, (googled on Ellopos, "according to nature" and got 17 hits), it means orientating the structure of government/class to nature.

It is like Greek line dancing, when someone joins the line, he follows the head and the rear. All the dancers do the same movement. When I 'align myself with nature' I am making the same movement as nature.

It is like this

This represents | Apollo
this represents O the Greek society
and this rep. | nature/physis

In a dysfunctional state |
here is O society
and nature is here |

The society is not in alignment. It is off. See to align. They brought their societies into alignment. to create
| (Apollo)
O
| (Nature)

Society become dysfunctional when out of alignment with either god or nature. Nature having come from God. Christ is the Logos. Nature is from Christ as Christ is in Heaven.

This "according to nature" in this instance should read, in "alignment with nature".

Not all the "accordings" can be changed only this and a couple more. #8 looks like it can also use an upgrade.

#8 "them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others, and not in legal subjection to them. Cle. What a dreadful picture, Stranger, have you given, and how great is the injury which is thus inflicted on young men to the ruin both of states and families! www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato/plato-laws-4.asp?pg=48" target="_blank">https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato/plato-laws-4.asp?pg=48

"them to lead a true life ALIGNED to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others, and not in legal subjection to them. Cle. What a dreadful picture, Stranger, have you given, and how great is the injury which is thus inflicted on young men to the ruin both of states and families! "

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Check out #7

7. [45.05%] GORGIAS by Plato - Complete text - Part 2 Page 12

these are the men who act according to nature; yes, by Heaven, and according to the law of nature: not, perhaps, according to that artificial law, which we invent and impose upon our fellows, of whom we take the best and strongest from their youth upwards, and tame them like young lions, - charming them with the sound of the voice, and saying to them, that with equality they must be content, and that the equal is the
www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato/plato-gorgias-2.asp?pg=12" target="_blank">https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/plato/plato-gorgias-2.asp?pg=12

What does it mean, "according to nature" and then 'according to the laws of nature'?

I'm not persuaded. I think you give to this much more importance than it really has. I would use according and "in line" without caring much. However, accordance means an even deeper harmony than "in line", since etymologically comes from the heart (latin cor, gen. cordis), meaning then a union of hearts, while "in line" denotes a rather external and superficial agreement.

Fair enough. Thanks for your reply.

I've been spending time with your search engine reading all sorts of quotes on laws of nature and on instinct.

This whole business is a mess from A-Z. Trying to figure out 'what', 'when' and 'how', and definition of terms and phrases is very difficult plus add in 2500 years of history and it is like sloggin' thru a muddy wet corn field.

Now, I come to a different nuance and that is the "Natural Moral Law". Now, the Stoics paid no heed to the Laws of Nature, the metaphysical laws of nature but concentrated solely on the "ethical" side of man. This they called the "Natural Law". But you noted that "laws of nature" and "natural law" is interchangeable. Well, for this idea of ethics the Catholic Church always uses the term "natural law" and the term "laws of Nature" for the physical laws of nature like the law of gravity, Keplar's laws, etc. Sometimes, it uses the term "Natural Moral Law". I would like to permanently label the ethical side as "Natural Moral Law".

This is Aristotle:
"Universal law is the law of Nature. For there really is, as every one to some extent divines, a natural justice and injustice that is binding on all men, even on those who have no association or covenant with each other. It is this that Sophocles' Antigone clearly means when she says that the burial of Polyneices was a just act in spite of the prohibition: she means that it was just by nature. " (From www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/aristotle/rhetoric.asp?pg=50" target="_blank">https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/ancient-greece/aristotle/rhetoric.asp?pg=50)

Now, Aristotle just calls it a "law of nature" all modern books, secular or religious, call this the "Natural Law", but then the Catholic Church calls this, sometimes, the "Natural Moral Law".

In your opinion, what is Antigone describing? Is it the Natural Moral Law? Is it an instinct of justice that all men have. If the Stoics are only concentrating on the ethics and were searching for a universal moral law of justice for all men, what is that called? Did they make a mistake? Did they mislabel it? What.

Can you help me bring clarity to this subject.

At Phaedrus 237 d is this:
"We must go on to observe that within each one of us there are two sorts of ruling or guiding principle that we follow. One is an innate desire for pleasure, the other an acquired judgement that aims at what is best. Sometimes these internal guides are in accord, sometimes in variance...."

Is this the "Natural Moral Law"? We have the Universal Law, the Unwritten Law, the Laws of Nature, the Natural Law, and "according to nature". If the Laws of Nature and the Natural Law are interchangeable then we can't confuse ethics with the Laws of Nature.

www.ellopos.net/hermes/default.asp?h=http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&sort=relevancerank&search-alias=books&ref_=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1&field-author=John%20Daniel%20Wild&_encoding=UTF8&tag=e0bf-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=390957" target="_blank">John Wild in his book Plato's Modern Enemies and the Theory of Natural Law, (University of Chicago Press, Chicago) titles a chapter called 'Basic Misconceptions of Natural Law', "By natural law, or moral law, I mean: a universal pattern of action, applicable to all men everywhere, required by human nature for its completion." (Wild, 64) "Natural law is founded on tendential facts of human nature." (Wild, 96)

This is what the Stoics taught. Instead of "Natural Law", he should have used a more specific term called "Natural Moral Law". Is this "Natural Moral Law" an instinct instead of "law"? Man has an instinct of justice?

Just trying to grapple and understand this. What do you make of the Stoics and their use of the term "natural law". Did they practice good Greek and science? Or were they an ideology?

Your questions need weeks of studying. You have to do it, and then, perhaps let us know about your findings.

This is for the other members of the forum. There are more than 2000 members, and they have only ears - no mouth to speak, no hand to write. Why? Are you afraid of speaking? Are you afraid of making mistakes?